Making Black History at CCNY

Episode Transcript

Vincent Boudreau 00:16

Welcome to From City to The World. I'm your host, Vincent Boudreau, the President of The City College of New York. From City to The world is a show about how the work that we're doing at City College matters to people across the city and throughout the world. We'll discuss the practical application of our research in solving real world issues like poverty and homelessness, mental health challenges, affordable housing, and disparities healthcare and immigration.

This month, in celebration of black history month, the first half of the show, we're going to discuss both the historical relationship between African Americans and City College, and some of the challenges that we have in educating the whole people in ways that provide social mobility to everyone. And so that'll also reflect on our goals moving forward. On the second half of the show, we will talk to the first rapper to be signed by a major record label in 1979. At the time, he was a student at City College, but left to sign with Mercury Records, and I'm going to tell you folks, there are worse reasons to leave college than that you've got a contract with Mercury Records. And now, he's interested in returning to college to finish his degree and so we're going to be really excited to have the opportunity to talk to Kurtis Blow.

But first, we're going to talk a little bit about the history at City College, and we're going to start in 1969 at the heart of the Civil Rights Movement. From June 29th, 1969 to August 24th of that same year, a total of 300,000 people gathered in Marcus Garvey Park in Harlem for a series of concerts. And the footage of those concerts was locked away for decades until the Roots drummer Questlove found it and created a documentary called the Summer of Soul(...or, When the Revolution Could Not Be Televised), the film has been nominated for a 2022 Academy Award for best original documentary. A few months earlier that same year, April 22nd, 1969, more than 200 African American and Puerto Rican students occupied 17 buildings here at CCNY. They closed the South Campus for two weeks, and in a show of solidarity, white students took over the North Campus, that's according to NY1.com. The takeover and the results of the protest are documented in the Five Demands, that's a film currently being co-produced and directed by Greta Schiller, who's a CCNY alum, and Andrea Weiss, who is a professor in the film department here at City College. The film tells the dramatic story of the 1969 student takeover. That little known two week student strike resulted in open admissions, which was a controversial 25-year experiment that radically remade the university into the most diverse college campus in the country.

At the time of the protest, African Americans and Puerto Ricans only made up 9% of the student body at CCNY while they made up 40% of the city's high school graduate and nearly the entire Harlem community surrounding the college. Today, according to the 2019 statistics found at CUNY.edu, 32.6% of the student body at CCNY is Latino while only 18.7% are African American or of African descent.

Now, I want to say a few things about those open admission protests that people don't know, we hear a lot on campus, especially talking to alumni who maybe graduated in the '50s and '60s who say, sometimes not so happily, that open admissions changed, sometimes they say ruined CCNY. And I want to acknowledge one thing, at the time of the open admissions process, a lot of people don't know, CUNY had a six year program to roll out open admissions where open admissions would first take place at the community colleges, then the assumption was students who maybe didn't have a lot of college experience would be graduating from the community colleges into the senior colleges when they were ready for education. The protests, of course, accelerated that, and so almost overnight, the demographics at City College changed. And it changed in a way where a lot of students who maybe weren't prepared for a City College education were suddenly on our campus. So, that's one thing that we need to acknowledge, that what had been a systematic plan to do the right thing in the face of protest became something that we did immediately.

The second point is probably more important, which is that the campus of CCNY today, campus that is in the top 10 campuses for diversity and the top five campuses in the country for social mobility, recently ranked number one by the Wall Street Journal for the best value education, would not be the campus we are today without open admissions, without that moment when we decided that if there was going to be a public university in the middle of Harlem, it could not exclude Latino and African American students in the neighborhood. So, was it a rough couple of years as the institution got used to an expanded enrollment and started thinking about how they maintained levels of educational excellence while bringing in people who maybe didn't have a lot of experience in college? Absolutely. Are we proud of the role that the open admissions period played in creating the City College of today? Without question.

Now, one of the things that come along with expanding opportunities for the whole people of College Campus, are some puzzles about how you maintain educational attainment equity across racial and gender lines. In other words, we want not just to make sure that we are admitting the right number of African American Latino students, that we want that population as much as possible to reflect the population of the city. We also want to make sure that once they are on campus, all of our students, regardless of who they are, where they came from, how they got here, are graduating at the same rate, are achieving at the same level, leave the college with the same robust job prospects as everybody else. And so to discuss recruitment and retention efforts, I am joined by Celia Lloyd, who is the vice president of student affairs and enrollment management here at CCNY, and a relatively new member of our administration, Dr. Naomi Nwosu-Stewart, who is the assistant vice president of enrollment management.

And let me just tell you a little bit about my first two guests today. Celia Lloyd has worked at City College since 1998 as a higher education strategist and change leader. She's an expert in managing, integrating student information systems, and is an advocate for excellence in student services. She believes that providing mentorship to underserved students is critical to access and retention. And prior to joining CCNY, Ms. Lloyd led student enrollment services as Academic Services manager at the University of the Virgin Islands. She's got a bachelor of science degree from York college, which is a SUNY school, master's degree from St John's University. She holds a certificate in executive leadership from CUNY, as well as certificate in educational leadership from Harvard University. Celia, welcome to From City To The World.

Celia Lloyd 08:03

Thank you, Vince.

Vincent Boudreau 08:04

Okay. I'm also pleased to welcome Dr. Naomi Nwosu-Stewart, who's recently joined city college as assistant vice president of Enrollment Management. She has extensive experience in developing enrollment management and student affairs programming to support the holistic needs of students. Prior to joining The City College of New York, she served as the director of Enrollment Management Services, we'll talk a little bit about this, the One Stop Student Service Center and the call center at CUNY's John J College of Criminal Justice. In this position, she revamped and expanded the One Stop Service Center to allow student students to address their cross campus administered needs in one location. Dr. Nwosu-Stewart earned a BS from SUNY's Purchase College, an MA from CUNY's Brook college, an Ms. ED from New York University and a PhD in M.Phil From CUNY's Graduate Center. She is passionate about promoting diversity, equity, inclusion, and access to K-16 education for all. She believes that eliminating barriers for the underserved students is critical in supporting access and student retention. Naomi, welcome to From City To The World.

Let's jump right into this question of how we think about the needs of a place like City College in educating the whole people, right? That is a phrase that came up when we founded the college, the whole people meant that in a time when most colleges were only educating an elite segment of the population, we were from the very beginning, a place that would educate everybody. And of course, if you're going to bring everybody into your campus, you're going to bring in the challenges that everybody has on your campus. And so from a perspective of student programming and student services, I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the challenges of educating the whole people, Celia, I'd like to start with you.

Celia Lloyd 09:59

We're looking at students from diverse populations, and one of the things actually in terms of bringing them in, as they're walking in the door, we're working on engaging with their families as well. We've found that it's very critical to engage the families in the education process from the get go, so the families are walking hand in hand with the students and they understand some of the challenges. I would say, once we get the students here, we need to make sure that they're ready to jump into some of the gateway classes, the basic classes that they need in math, for instance. We do a lot of foundational work when they first come in in the summertime to get them ready for math and other courses, which they may need some assistance.

Let me just take a step back and talk about, in terms of student support, the financial aspect of it, because that is so critical. As a matter of fact, on the trajectory, I see admissions and finances because if students do not know, and if the families don't know how they're going to pay for college, that's a long story. So, we do a lot with financial aid education, making sure that students are ready to pay for college. Students will pay for college, the notion that want to skate through the system without paying is not true. Students will work hard and make sure that they pay their tuition. So, what we do as a college and student affairs and the cost to college, is provide a lot of emergency support for students, for tuition, for food and housing security, and other support, student should not be sitting in the classroom wondering how she or he is going to pay the rent or make the next meal.

Vincent Boudreau 11:47

So, I want to really drill down on that, because so many people believe that college is so expensive that they'll never be able to afford it, or we hear so much about student debt. But a lot of people don't know the relationship between a family's need, the kinds of financial aid that's available, and what they would be responsible for paying. And, so now, I wonder if you could speak to what it's like for students, particularly students that come from families that may not have a lot of money to finance their education at a place like City College?

Celia Lloyd 12:25

I think what it means for them is just realizing what is out there. And one thing about it is here at City College, we're moving to revamp and expand the One Stop. And with the One Stop, is the place where students can come, with their families as well, to get the advice that they need, and they don't have to go to various administrative offices where they feel it's a silo of, "How do I register for classes? How do I apply for financial aid?" And we do have some program, and we will begin to develop additional program, to make sure that students are aware of what it means when October 1st comes and the FAFSA application opens up, what does that mean for you to actually say-

Vincent Boudreau 13:02

Could you explain the FAFSA, what that is?

Celia Lloyd 13:05

Okay. So, the Federal Application For Financial Aid For Students is the application where students must complete in order for them to be eligible or to be considered for financial aid, in addition, a student that's in state, also the TAP application as well. This will allow students, one, for us to figure out exactly what their family can contribute to their education, and also to see if they're eligible for any other scholarships or any other type of aid. And with that, that goes into the holistic approach of that once you know what your financial aid package is. And when you begin to think about that, now you can actually do your registration, now you can be thinking about all the other activities that you can engage in because the barrier of how to finance your education is there, especially coming from a first generation family where you're the first one to go to college, and sometimes it's language barriers, it's economic barriers, it's just educational barriers where you may be the first one to graduate from high school, how do you navigate that? And how do you do it in a way that is supported by the college, and also building relationship with the family, making sure that you'll be able to finance education.

Vincent Boudreau 14:14

And I want to just emphasize something that Naomi just said, if you are a parent of, uncle and aunt of, or a student, who's thinking about financing their education, there's a form that you fill out, and it's about this time of year that you start to get it where you can plug in the financial resources that you have, called the FAFSA form and they will calculate what money they think you need to go to your college, and they will factor in how much tuition will cost, they'll factor in, "Do you need a Metro card to come and go? Do you need food? Are you going to stay in a dormitory?" all those kinds of costs. We live in a state where if you are eligible for financial aid, and over 70% of our students are eligible for full financial aid, you will pay nothing for tuition. And there is an availability of scholarships to help pay for all those other things, metro cards, transportation, food. If you're living in an apartment, you can put those expenses down as well.

So, that financial aid form is crucial. Here at City College, last year, in addition to financial aid from the state, we gave out over $6 million in scholarship support to students. As BP Lloyd was talking about, it ranges from emergency funds to help students who are in trouble, to money to help students participate in research and internships, to money to help them take care of things like transportation and housing. So, something I always say to students when they come in and this is just as much for the parents and the families, and for students themselves, you've got to study the regulations around financial aid like it's a final exam, because that will put money in your pocket.

Let me just pivot a little bit, Celia, I want to ask about... And we talk all the time about how precarious sometimes it is, especially for someone who's maybe the first time in her family to go to college, the burden of sometimes self-doubt that they have, the challenges of not necessarily having somebody at home who can say, "Oh, I remember when I was in college and I did this and this and this." and give you some kind of advice, but I wonder if we can talk a little bit about the moments in a student's college career where they may be in particular danger of dropping out or running in trouble. Speak to that a little bit.

Celia Lloyd 16:43

Yes. Just want to piggyback a little bit back to the financial education, because that's a place where students fall back, students are hesitant to bring to attention that they're experiencing challenges. So, we're going to be partnering with organizations and doing a lot more with financial literacy, just understanding the full gamut of using your finances, how you see out of debt, how you manage your credit rating, because all those things factor into your financial aid anyway. We see students who don't have the kind of support that they need, I'm going to be successful if I see someone who looks like me or who's had the same experience that I've had, so we are leveraging our peer mentoring program-

Vincent Boudreau 17:33

Could you describe what a peer a mentoring program is?

Celia Lloyd 17:36

To have a program where you have students who are working on say specific projects or specific majors, for instance, if I have challenges with math, there might be a peer, there might be a mentoring group in the math department whom I could go to for assistance, and it's not a faculty member, it's not an administrator, it's a student as myself who's probably a couple of years ahead of me, so I would feel much more comfortable dealing with a student than I would with a faculty member.

Vincent Boudreau 18:06

This idea of students feeling specifically comfortable with people who look like them, I mean, how important is that? And what are we doing on campus?

Celia Lloyd 18:17

There are many programs within the clubs and organizations within student affairs that students can affiliate with. So, it's pretty easy, there's a process but it's pretty easy for a student to start the club. So, say I came in and I was looking for supports in writing a book, let me just use this as an example, I can create a club of people who have similar interests to get me through that process. The other thing I want to talk about in terms of peer mentoring and just support are some of our innovative programs. We have some creative programs where students actually can, again, partner with other students, start their own businesses, and start their own businesses with students not only within the specific majors or interest groups or across the campus. For instance, where you may have a group of students who are designing a project, from students from engineering and science and history and whatever, just partnering together. So, those supports help students to grow.

We're also looking at, in terms of the support for students, we call them soft or essential skills, because oftentimes we find students going through a programs who at the time of graduation don't have some of the skills they need, "How do I get a job? Can I get an internship so that I can be ready for the workforce or ready for graduate school? How do I interview? How do I prepare my resume?" Those skills are incredibly important as well. This is part of all support for students. Our counseling center provides incredible support for students who are just struggling personally with health and wellness needs. Students can go in, they have consultations with our advisors and counselors, and it's drawn in quiet and private setting so you don't feel intimidated. There's gamut of support available to students. We, however, work and continue to work to make sure that students are aware of all the support services available to them.

Vincent Boudreau 20:22

So, let me ask, and this may, Naomi, lead you back to a fuller discussion of what One Stop is and how it works, but I do want to delve a little more deeply into the question of how do we make sure that students from wide variety of different backgrounds are all well served by the institution? It used to be, back in the day when you were a freshman at a CCNY, I've heard so many alumni tell this story, they would all gather in the Great Hall and someone would come on stage, probably the Dean of students, and he would say, "Look to your left, look to your right, by the time graduation day comes, one of those people won't be here.", we were proud of the fact that... An indication of how rigorous we were, what a good school we were, that we flunked people out. We don't say that anymore. Today, when a student comes to college, the institution makes an implicit commitment to that student that we will do everything we can to make you succeed, and so we look at graduation rates and who's graduating in four years, in six years, we want to get everybody over the finish line.

What are the challenges that an institution that's taking students from maybe high schools in the city that don't always do a good job of preparing students, or maybe from families where nobody is a role model for college, what are the challenges and how do we address those?

Celia Lloyd 21:52

I think some of the challenges or the challenges that I see is getting to know the students. A lot of times we make assumptions of where students are coming from and not knowing what the background story is. And I think the way that you do that is actually being on the ground running. From the first day of classes and my first week here, I saw you and other administration at City College just out there helping students just getting onto the campus, eliminating just that barrier of how you get on the campus to show your vaccination. So, I think the biggest thing is knowing who your students are, not making the assumptions. A lot of times we rely on data and that's not the humanistic approach of it. When you look at the data to say, "Hey, this is what we see." t the same time getting down there and saying, "Okay, how many students are there that are taking gateway classes that are minorities are having struggles?"

Celia Lloyd 22:43

Myself as a science major, I wish I saw more teachers that look like me to help me transition to the major. Sometimes I had to call my dad who was a engineer, he took classes there at City College as well, to say, "Hey, how do you do this math problem or question?" and it was no one there to help. So, I think for me, when I move forward with my team, it's treat each student as you would want your child to be treated. Give them the opportunity to tell you what the story is, don't make assumptions of why they're here, what they need, sometimes they just need someone to listen, "Hey, I have financial aid issues, yes we'll get to the bottom of it, but this is what's going on. I have someone that has an issue. We're changing. We lost our apartment." And how do we fold that in to say, "You know what, we're here to take care of the administrative business, but we're also empathetic to your needs."

Celia Lloyd 23:31

We're also looking at ways how we can establish things that the population needs. As the student population switch and varies, it's different programming that needs to be in place to keep up with the time and the needs of the students. Just as we had during the COVID time, we were able to put in emergency relief funds, things that students needed, how can we help them navigate in getting into a class if you're stuck in another country, or if your family member felt ill. So, the thing about it is looking at administrative component of it, looking at the educational component of it, and also looking at the humanistic side of what do we need to do to holistically look at the student and move them through so they can come back as alum that gives to the school.

Vincent Boudreau 24:15

Yeah. I think a lot of students don't know the breadth of concerns that we make our business. We have emergency loans, we have, routinely, particularly during COVID, but even before that, been concerned with students who may have been displaced from their homes because of a fire or domestic violence or something like that. We have a very well staffed food section that is available every day of the year for students to go to if they are hungry, there was a study a little while ago that projected that 40% of CUNY students across the city experienced food insecurity at some time during the previous year. And so we want to address that because we know that if a student is worried about making the rent, or getting food or getting a babysitter-

Celia Lloyd 25:04

As much as we can, we include students on our planning committee, because as administrators, sometimes we forget we're planning for students, but they're not in the room. So, we try to have students on our planning committee, they get engaged, we get their direct feedback from them so we can program for them, for their success.

Vincent Boudreau 25:25

In 1979, Kurtis Blow became am the first rap artist to be signed to a major record label. That year Mercury really released Christmas Rapping and it sold over 400,000 copies and joined traditional Christmas tunes as a classic. He went on to release 10 albums over 11 years, some of his best known songs are The Breaks, Party Time? AJ, Basketball and If I Ruled The World, which became a top five hit on Billboards' R and B charts. In 1986, he collaborated with Dexter Scott King, Martin Luther King's son, to produce a song to celebrate Dr. King's birthday called King Holiday, love that song. Kurtis Blow collaborated with or produced songs for Russell Simmons, Wyclef Jean, The Fat Boys, Run DMC who began his career build as the son of Kurtis Blow.

Vincent Boudreau 26:16

After 2002, after 9/11, he went to the Middle East and performed 17 shows for the US Armed Forces. He performed in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Oman. When Kurtis Blow became the first rapper to be signed to a major record label, he helped legitimize hip hop, and intends to help redeem it. In 2009, he became an ordained minister and says that hip hop can bring the young people back to church. Kurtis Blow, I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to welcome you. And I wonder if we can start with you just talking about what it was like to grow up in the shadow of City College, you were born and raised in Harlem and so you had our campus, at least, in your neighborhood and maybe on your mind from a very young age, and I wonder what that was like.

Kurtis Blow 27:07

Yes. Oh, thank you. Thank you for the beautiful and great intro. Kurtis Blow Walker, Kurtis Walker, Kurt Walker was born in 1959, right there on a 140th Street between Convent and Amsterdam, and that was the North side of the campus of City College. From an early age, as far as I can remember, I always loved that college, it was like recreation, it was like back to nature with all of the parks and the grass and the St. Nicholas terrace and that whole park there. Oh my gosh. I remember as I could start to walk, I would go on journeys and missions, and we called them explorations, by just going down into the St. Nicholas Park and catching insects and butterflies and all that good stuff, so I remember.

My first thing about hip hop that I remember goes all the way back to... Well, it was the late '60s, of course, in Harlem and growing up in Sugar Hill, that was the section of Harlem we called Sugar Hill, Malcolm X territory. I remember people used to say Malcolm X used to hustle right there on 146th street in Amsterdam Avenue, five blocks to the north of us.

And so, believe it or not, I moved down to Convent Avenue to a building called 260 Convent Avenue where I moved next door to, guess who Attallah Shabazz, that was Malcolm X's daughter. And I thought it was Betty Shabazz, Malcolm's wife, because one day I was being chased by the gang, and I lived on the ninth floor in 260 and so I was running up the stairs and these gang were right on my tail, and I remember getting to the 8th floor and I reached in my pocket to try to get the keys and the keys fell on the floor, and I was "Oh my God." so I kept running and I got to the ninth floor and the door opened up and Betty Shabazz walked out, Malcolm X's wife, and so I went and grabbed a hold of her, and I was a shortie during that time. My arms went around her, the waist, and I put my head into her stomach and I closed my eyes and I said, "Please help me, these boys are going to kill me. Help me." and right then that's when the guys, the boys, came upstairs and got to the ninth floor and she saw them and said, "You guys, leave this boy alone, go back downstairs, leave this boy alone, he's a good kid. Leave him alone, go downstairs now."

And I don't know if you know about the block 140th street in Amsterdam, going from one 140th to 141st, all the buildings are connected, so you can go to the rooftop and go from 140th street and run all the way to 141st street by jumping over the ledges and whatever have you, and so we used to rehearse and practice and break dance up there, and that's where I got my start because the older kids on the block found out about the young Kurt who could do all this footwork and acrobatics and all these stuff and they put me down with their crew called the Hill Boys and we used to do battle cross on the Eastside with the summer youth programs. I remember so vividly, they saved my life, those summer youth programs that City College had, my mother enrolled me in the Each One Teach One program. Way back in 1960, I was playing baseball, I was doing the PAL summer youth programs, and it was a glorious time, my mom kept me out of harm's way by enrolling me in those summer youth programs.

So, I actually ran track for City College, for CCNY, and I swam. We had competitions with all the colleges in the New York city area, and we used to run track over at Randall's Island and it was incredible going to the track meets. And what I was saying about the Each One Teach One, that was a part of the Rucker tournament that was down in the Polar Grounds on 8th Avenue on 155th street. And so when they moved that up to CCNY, that brand new gym. Incredible. See, I was a local kid in Harlem and on that block, and so I was the first one to go underground, they called it.

So, I was on Amsterdam Avenue one time over at the Goethals Hall, and I went into building, they have a gym up there on the fourth floor. So, I went down to the basement, and I was seven years old when I did this, I got lost going down in the basement. So I went through the alley down in the basement and traveled and came out at Goethals Hall on Convent, and Wingate is on Amsterdam, so I went from Wingate to Goethals Hall underground, and we found out that there were a series of tunnels under City College, and when I found out that, the whole neighborhood said, "Young Kurtis was the first to go underground." So, we used to go from 140th street in Convent all the way down to 138th street or 33rd street, we could, because they were just series of underground tunnels.

Vincent Boudreau 34:15

I got to interrupt you there because people don't know that what we've been doing for the last five years, we've got a bunch of those gargoyles that came off the building and we refurbished some of them and replaced them, but in those tunnels today, there are those gargoyles, and so every year at Halloween, we open the tunnels up, we have a haunted house now, so everybody in the neighborhood can come to City College and go underground and maybe see some zombies and other kind of monsters down there. So, we are proud of those tunnels, I'm really glad you got to experience it as a young man.

Kurtis Blow 34:52

Yes. Amazing. To go on, to say, the square right there on the 140th street, that was our playground, that was... As a matter of fact, across the street, right there by Goethals there's a little park right there, it's all filled up with trees and such right now, but it used to have incredible grass and we used to play football there, I played four years of community football, our team was the Vikings, we were undefeated playing football right there. All right. And so, I mean, I grew up and hung out and partied and did everything in and around City College and the City College area. As a matter of fact, I went to elementary school, right there, 138th street in Amsterdam, PS192. And then I went to high school, right there, 135th street at the High School of Music and Arts. So, all of my academics were locally, right there around the City College area.

And I remember going back again, meeting Dr. J at those Rucker games at City College, and because my track coach went to college with Dr. J, and Dr. J was walking down the street by the registration building and right before the science building, and she stopped him because there was a hot dog stand there all the time, and he was eating a hot dog and she said, "Julius, come here Julius. Give me a bite of that hot dog." and he'd say "Oh Barbara." and gave her a bite, she took a big bite. And she said, "Come here, now I want you to meet these students of mine, and this is little Kurt right here. Look at... " I had five trophies, I had two swimming trophies and about three track trophies, I mean, I won the 50 yard dash that day so I was happy, and Dr. J looked in the back of the car and he looked at me, he said, "Oh my God, look at all those trophies. You had a great day, huh?" I said, "Yeah, I had a great day, I won the 50 yard dash." and he said, "Well, you go ahead young man, keep up the great work." and he gave me another thumbs up. And that was my glorious moment, and that's why I made the song Basketball because it is my favorite sport, I met Dr. J at City College.

Vincent Boudreau 37:39

You got a thumbs up from Betty Shabazz and Dr. J, those are two very powerful thumbs up. And we are now talking to City College alum and student Mr. Kurtis Blow. I wonder if I could ask you, you talked about your other enrolling you in the Each One Teach One program and in the PAL, and one of the issues that we sometimes have is when students from the neighborhood come to City College, they don't always have a lot of support or, not even really support, but knowledge in the family about what it takes for a young person to navigate college. Naomi said earlier that when she was having trouble, she had a father who was an engineer that she could go to, but could you talk a little bit Kurtis about the role that your family played in directing you towards CCNY, maybe supporting your studies? What was that like?

Kurtis Blow 38:40

Well, my mother was everything, I grew up without a dad in my household, in Harlem, we had a step for a while. But my mom, I remember she was such... I call her an activist because she was always supporting the Civil Rights Movement and always watching TV and Dr. Martin Luther King, and everything. I remember when they killed Martin Luther King, she came home and she was crying and she was sobbing, I was "Mom, what happened?" "Oh, they just killed our great hero, our great leader, he was a wonderful man leading us for unity and peace and equality and all these." and she was just crying, boohooing. And I remember going to school the next day and not being a very happy with the other students, and so they took me to the dean's office, and I remember our dean talking to me and forgiving me for my anger and just my response about this whole situation. And so she was always there for me, always supporting me with my academics because she saw something in me.

When I was in the third grade, I took a test, a reading test, and I had a 12th grade reading level, so they put me in these IGC classes over at 192 Elementary called Intellectually Gifted Children. So, I actually went on to go to EP classes for extra special progress classes in junior high, and of course, I passed the test for the High School of Music and in arts. And so she was always supporting me and my academic career. She always told me, "With that reading, and with that brain... " they used to call me the brain. And so the whole neighborhood... So, I used that as my calling card, "Oh, I got a 12th grade reading level." and science and math was always my favorite subject in school, and I used to get 100s on tests and everything, and so the neighborhood found out. So, they say it takes a whole neighborhood, community to raise a child, and my mom was very vocal about that, telling all of my friends and our family and everyone in the neighborhood about that, so I became the prize of the neighborhood, "The young Kurt who's going to go to college, he vows to go to college." and everyone supported that in the community.

And that was a great thing. That was a big, big help to me, that support that I got, not only just for my mom, but everyone else in the community, all the neighbors and, man, that was incredible. You remember that movie Boys in the Hood where there's one kid getting ready to sign to football, where he has a academic scholarship to go, and then everyone was happy for him and his family and the whole neighborhood and everyone, then he didn't get a chance to make it because he got killed by the drive by, and that was such a big, big, dramatic situation. And that happens a lot in the communities of people of color, and so whenever we can get the chance to support someone who has the dream to go to college, we should all support it.

Vincent Boudreau 42:45

And, I think that it's instructive too, because you had that support from the neighborhood. I think as colleges like City College, more and more realize that we have a responsibility to provide those supports, even if they're not sort of traditionally academic support, if a student has food insecurity or trouble with rent or they have anxiety and they need to talk to somebody not necessarily about their classes. And so I think there's a thread from the kind of support you got in the 1970s to the kind of support that I think colleges like City College that are thinking about keeping everybody in the game are working to develop. You said math and science were you're real strong parts, and I wonder if... Would you have thoughts about the relationship between the work you did in music and mathematics? Did your brain kind of go from one to the other in a straight line? Or was it a little bit of to change clothes to do the other?

Kurtis Blow 43:51

Oh, yes. I'm overjoyed that you asked that question because I truly believe that musicians and singers and artists, rappers, we are scientists of sound, and that comes from a song by Kool and The Gang called Heaven at Once, and he's talking to his little brother saying that, "Yes, we have this talent, but we are scientists of sound, mathematically putting it down." And so I done learned this music theory, this is the science of music, the circle of keys, knowing how to write a song in the right pitch or in the right key to have this mysterious vibe is a minor seven that we called it. And then you have different ways that you can create different moods with your music. And definitely science and music are go hand in hand, you can take it as music theory, and we learn music theory in school with every instrument, knowing the qualities and the options of every instrument from the strings to the horns, to the percussion, to the keyboard, is all one big scientific, mathematical culture. I totally believe there is a strong, strong, strong connection. I've studied it as well and did the research, and you see if you study music, there is that connection. And the new thing is this mind meditation and using the different frequencies to use this meditation music that will heal your body.

Kurtis Blow 46:02

And people are just finding out about the 741 megahertz, see, when we record music, we generally record it at 40, 41 megahertz, that's stereo, and so there's another frequency that is underground that if you listen to it, it will heal your body, it will heal strokes, it will get rid of toxins and disease and infections and can change your mood, the 528, oh my God. If you look up all these... They're all on YouTube right now. So, that's the mind meditation that is the future of music using these special frequencies that can now heal your body.

Vincent Boudreau 46:56

So, I'm afraid we have only time for one more question, we're coming to the end of the show. I am going to send you a book by the way, I got a book in my office I just got called The Jazz of Physics, which makes that argument as well about frequencies, I've enjoyed reading it. But I have one final question, there's a lot of bad reasons to leave City College before you get your degree, you left with a major record deal so pretty hard to criticize that decision at the time. But you're now in the process of coming back and finishing up those last credits you need for a CCNY degree, could you tell us why this is something that has become important to you at this stage in your life and your career?

Kurtis Blow 47:39

I am the anthesis of that old saying that you can't teach old dog new tricks. I am an avid supporter of education. I think there is a lot still to be learned, education is simply the acquisition of information, and there is so much, we can live three lifetimes and still never find out all the information that is available to us on this planet. And so, I will forever be on that quest to obtain knowledge. I miss it, I actually miss being in the classroom setting and just responding and communicating and learning and dialoguing, it's just a great atmosphere and it's a positive one, it only leads to a successful future. I've learned so much in my lifetime and I have learned how to apply it to my normal everyday life and be fairly successful, I wouldn't say I'm totally rich like Jay-Z or somebody, but I'm okay, and I did well, and God has blessed me.

And the other reason is, I have formed an organization called the United Coalition for Humanity, which is a group of people geared to bridge the gap for all organizations and individuals who believe in equal human rights for everyone. So, we are out there trying to help people, is basically good against evil, we are plagued with so many injustices and problems and situations and issues, and from the pandemic to criminal justice reform, sustainability, education, entertainment, sports, man, this life of ours has changed up considerably. So, I want to be on the winning team, I want to be a part of the solution and not the problem. And I think if I acquire my degree or, at least, get some more knowledge concerning the issues that we are dealing with today, and I can be part of the solution.

So ucfh.org is our organization, is free to join, we need your support and you can look us up and learn more about us as well. And we also have a big arm, a big leg department called the Hip Hop Alliance, which is a brand new union that we formed with SAG-AFTRA, the big union, to give entertainments and artists and all the people in entertainment help, to sustain and further help them with their careers in music or whatever have you in entertainment. So, that's the Hip Hop Alliance. And I think that we can do a lot of help out there in the community working for humanity. We are all one big human family, we need to support and love each other, and love each other like we want to be loved. Amen?

Vincent Boudreau 51:26

Amen. So, we will put those two addresses, the ucfh.org and Hip Hop Alliance, we'll put those on our website. In some of the last things you said, we talk a lot about education as preparing people to get good jobs, maybe lift themselves or their family or their children eventually out of difficulty or poverty. You bring up the other aspects that we just can't afford to underplay, which is... It is a joy to learn and to study and to be with other people who are learning and studying and drawing on them. So, I want to thank you for shining that light on the work that educators all around the world do, and I mean, from parents to college professors.

Well, that's our show for everybody. I want to thank you for listening to From City To The World. I want to give a special thanks to our three guests, Celia Lloyd who's the vice president of Student Affairs and Enrollment Management here at The City College of New York, Dr. Naomi Nwosu-Stewart who is the assistant vice president of Enrollment Management, and a very special thanks to the... He said he wasn't that successful but my script says, a very special thanks to the legendary rapper Kurtis Blow, for sharing fond memories of his time in Harlem, growing up at City College in the late 1970s. I want to thank you all for listening to From City To The world. The show is produced by Angela Hardon, and I help a little bit. I'm Vince Boudreau, the President of The City College of New York. Thank you everybody. Appreciate all three of you for spending with me time this week.

Celia Lloyd 53:04

And so, I just want to say that my husband has all of your vinyls!

Vincent Boudreau 53:06

There you go.